An_Maonaigh: Great, welcome everybody. Today is Wednesday, the 22nd of April. It is 15.13 Dublin time. Dublin mushroom time, where you turn up whatever you want.
An_Maonaigh: And, I want to check in with great joy, at our session today. As a result of our dialogue a couple of weeks ago, I have tried some tools, mainly in Google and Notebook LM,
An_Maonaigh: to help me work with content that begins as static, but then it needs to move and be more dynamic, so I'm very excited about that.
An_Maonaigh: And, looking forward to Chris Cook joining today. Chris and I have been working together for about a year.
An_Maonaigh: And and it was interesting, Josh, that you were the one who said that Olis suggested that we invite him.
An_Maonaigh: That's an AI.
An_Maonaigh: Giving us a suggestion which we followed. How interesting is that?
An_Maonaigh: Because Olus is my AI, and when I did the summary, it said, you should be including Chris Cook into this conversation, so thank you for doing that, he's on his way. So, blessings to everybody. Josh, how are you today in Lima, Peru?
Josh Sidman: I'm good.
Josh Sidman: We're just,
Josh Sidman: winding down summer. It's getting gray and overcast, and it will be that way for the next… Several months.
Josh Sidman: Yeah,
Josh Sidman: I'm confused as to why we're not all here at the moment. Like I mentioned before, you hit the record button, and my suspicion is that
Josh Sidman: Some people will be showing up in 45 minutes, which will be an hour after what you and I thought was the correct start time.
Josh Sidman: So, I don't know how much we want to… Dive into… Now, before they show up.
Josh Sidman: And it's kind of funny, because this is what we're here to talk about, is how we deal with
Josh Sidman: asynchronicity.
Josh Sidman: in… in terms of conversations. So, if we had…
Josh Sidman: If we were in the future and had this all doped out, maybe what we're dealing with right now would not be an issue.
Josh Sidman: Because we would just…
Josh Sidman: have the base, you know, the foundation layer conversation among the three of us who are here at the moment, and then it would turn into the…
Josh Sidman: Foundation for an ongoing conversation, and maybe… maybe it doesn't matter so much who was there
Josh Sidman: At… at the… at the moment of… Recording the foundation.
An_Maonaigh: Mmm, beautiful observation. We are the fractal.
An_Maonaigh: Of that which we wish to create.
Gyuri: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
An_Maonaigh: Well, Gary, how are you?
Gyuri: Yeah. Well, I'm really grateful, because I feel like, like I was in 2019,
Gyuri: I work for HubScience, a little startup in Hungary, and they really like what I do, and I work for them, and they wanted to buy it, but…
Gyuri: But they found is, oh, no, no, you can't… you can't just… you can't just rent it from this guy. Either he can own it or not, so that was the end of it. But, and at that time, we had two weekly… two weekly sprint meetings, you know.
Gyuri: So just, I went, you know, I work from home. Every Thursday afternoon around this time, I tuned in, and we spent two, three hours talking, so I really feel like I'm back in that startup world, you know.
Gyuri: Which is… which is lovely to have. And, I nearly got it all set up for you to do that… to do this kind of integration of,
Gyuri: Synchronous and asynchronous, because you need both, basically.
Gyuri: But my machine is hardly, hardly operable, because there's got too many windows, windows up on both of my machines, but I hope next week I can actually show you how you could actually start working like that.
Gyuri: Yeah.
An_Maonaigh: You are whetting our appetite, brother! Wawa, wow!
An_Maonaigh: Looking forward to that.
An_Maonaigh: And, Chris Cook has entered the room.
Chris Cook: Hello, guys.
An_Maonaigh: Lovely to see you, Chris. How are you today?
Chris Cook: Late.
An_Maonaigh: Well, this is… that's a… that's a perception. You said you'd be here at 15, 15, and here you are.
Chris Cook: Yeah. Well, it's better… better not late as in dead, isn't it? So, there we go.
An_Maonaigh: So, we were just checking in, and what I'll do, Chris, for the recording is just get the other guys to introduce themselves and the context by which we're here, and then you can check in. Is that okay?
Chris Cook: Sure.
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, so I'll start. So Josh and I met in a group called Monetary Diversity, which is a group of people who are doing different things.
An_Maonaigh: We noticed, he and I,
An_Maonaigh: That, for all of the time we spent together, 2 hours, we spent most of the time messing around in the Miro board, and we didn't really connect.
An_Maonaigh: So I set up a call then with Josh, and I said, I love what you're doing with Silvio Gazelle's work, how can we, how can we follow on with that?
An_Maonaigh: And, as a result of that dialogue, Josh said, you know what?
An_Maonaigh: I have an issue where I'm doing these podcasts, but I've no way to really turn them into dynamic dialogues. Do you know something we might do? And we immediately brought in Gyuri, who's in Holland, and we brought in Guillen, who's in South Africa, and then we brought in Michael.
Gyuri: Goody.
An_Maonaigh: Hungary. What did I say? Holland?
Gyuri: Hold on.
An_Maonaigh: Sorry, I have Rainier on my mind, sorry. So, Gary is in the Free State of Hungary, the European Free State of Hungary.
Gyuri: post-European, hopefully.
An_Maonaigh: Oh, that's good. Oh my god, bring back the… bring back the, the Kaiser. What?
An_Maonaigh: So, yeah, Guri has been working on annotation for some time, and he's been working on IPFS, Interplanetary File System, so Guri wants to build something. Then we had Michael Meehan, who was here for a bit, he's doing a bit of tech, and then we had Cameron, who's doing a bit of tech.
An_Maonaigh: So, we meet every two weeks, just to catch up, and see if we can produce, an MVP, a Minimum Viable Product.
An_Maonaigh: that Josh can then put out when he does the second series of Economics 2.0, which is what he's teaching as part of Henry George. So that's the context under which we come. So, if Josh and Guri can give, kind of an intro and a background, and then Chris can check in
An_Maonaigh: Minimum workable, you're right, yeah, an MWB, I prefer that.
Gyuri: Because we're not into… we are not lean startup, we're not interested in, in finding quickly out what the market wants.
Gyuri: We know that we want this for all, forever, you know. I love it. It's not the question, is it needed? Can we deliver. That's the real question.
An_Maonaigh: Beautiful. So, while you have the microphone off, say hello to Chris. I don't know if you've met before.
Gyuri: No, hello, hello.
Chris Cook: Hi, I don't think we have met.
Gyuri: No, no, no.
An_Maonaigh: A bit about what you're doing.
Gyuri: Riley, Chad.
Gyuri: I've been… I've been on this… on this journey for nearly 20… 22 years. It all started with a DTI-supported feasibility study for personalized mobile computing. So I've been doing mobile computing in 2003,
Gyuri: And with the hidden agenda that I… and this is how it worked, that I wanted to make this mobile computing, web computing, laptop computing with just one thing, you know, so you… so, you know, all this… all this… and from the… from the outset, the goal was it's really making
Gyuri: going from personal computing, or mobile computing, into interpersonal computing. So that's really the journey.
Gyuri: A little bit of, I don't know whether you're aware of Engelbard's work.
Gyuri: Chris, have you heard of Engelbar, Doug Engelbar?
Chris Cook: Nope.
An_Maonaigh: Can you put it in the chat?
Gyuri: Yeah.
An_Maonaigh: We got his name right.
Gyuri: Just one sentence that he… he wrote in 1960. He wrote a proposal, which eventually got funded and everything, and his goal was just the one sentence, which is only on the abstract, which is never distributed.
Gyuri: He wanted… his goal was to…
Gyuri: augment the intellectual capability of the individual human being.
Gyuri: And I am doing it in a collaborative setting.
Gyuri: So he's… he's invented the Mars, and the whole, whole computing that we do, this, Mars-driven thing, because he invented the Mars, but that's not the most important thing.
Gyuri: And about and his team, they really created the modern computing, what we have now, and they actually had to do everything in 68.
Gyuri: Video conferencing, collaborative writing. In fact, they have collaborative writing where each one had its own maps.
Gyuri: Okay, so you could have mouse fighting. Anyhow, so Engabart is really… I've been doing Engabart work before I discovered that he existed. In fact, just lastly, in my PhD, I reinvented
Gyuri: the meta-language Meta System, they called it, or whatever they called it, and it got classified, so 20 years later, I could rediscover it.
Gyuri: reinvented, basically. Because the same logic is there, so…
Gyuri: So I've been on this long, long journey, and hopefully the technology is catching up with us, interplanetary file system, and all these new protocols, and a new web can be built. And I'm not the only one working on it, lots of people trying to do this.
Gyuri: So people see this opportunity that instead of a decentralized web, decentralized web is not enough.
Gyuri: It's decent enough, it's a nice shift, it's a paradigm shift, but we really need to flip the paradigm, so it's got to be people-centered.
Gyuri: And, so that's what I'm doing, yeah, thank you.
An_Maonaigh: And, Josh, couple of minutes for you to,
An_Maonaigh: to get Chris some context, and then we bring in Chris.
Josh Sidman: Sure. Chris, nice to meet you.
Josh Sidman: I'm currently located in Lima, Peru, but I'm originally from New York.
Josh Sidman: I guess I'll start…
Josh Sidman: my little narrative in 2007, where I had already had a brief career on Wall Street,
Josh Sidman: Found that that world was not for me.
Josh Sidman: but… and had gone on to other things, music, actually. And around that time, I happened to be reading Keynes, and in Keynes's…
Josh Sidman: main book, The General Theory, he spent 5 pages talking about this guy, Silvio Gassel, who I had never heard of before. And it was an… it was interesting enough that I wanted to learn more.
Josh Sidman: And so I tried to get a copy of his book.
Josh Sidman: which is called the Natural Economic Order. And the first clue about how off the beaten track that
Josh Sidman: would eventually take me was that the book was not even in print in English. I had to track down a retired library copy from the 1950s, and… and I finally got it, and I read it, and it immediately spoke to me and made sense.
Josh Sidman: In terms of… In terms of describing why the…
Josh Sidman: dream of the free market, which is… Which is individuals
Josh Sidman: Being made free to employ their Their creativity, their initiative, 2…
Josh Sidman: Pursue their own self-interest, and thereby Benefiting society in the process.
Josh Sidman: That's a, to me, a beautiful idea.
Josh Sidman: But it is not… it doesn't match up with what I saw
Josh Sidman: You know, working in the world of finance and economics, where where…
Josh Sidman: People are not benefiting society by pursuing their own self-interest.
Josh Sidman: And Giselle made sense of it in a way that I had never seen before, but that spoke to me immediately.
Josh Sidman: as being… true, self-evident. And I spent about the next 13 or 14 years,
Josh Sidman: Talking about these ideas to anyone who would listen, writing about them, trying to find someone to explain to me why nobody knows about this guy.
Josh Sidman: Is his analysis wrong? I assumed it was probably wrong at… for the first several years, because if it wasn't wrong, it didn't make sense that nobody knew about him. So I was kind of looking for somebody to explain to me what was wrong with it for quite a while.
Josh Sidman: And that never happened.
Josh Sidman: And about 4 or 5 years ago, I finally connected with a network of people in other countries who
Josh Sidman: who are working on advocating for Gassels.
Josh Sidman: ideas, specifically in Argentina and in Germany, there are organizations that
Josh Sidman: that are dedicated to promoting his ideas. And as an English speaker, I started helping those groups do outreach in the English-speaking world. And through that process, became
Josh Sidman: It became clear to me that there needed to be
Josh Sidman: an entity in the English-speaking world that is doing what these folks are doing in the Spanish and German-speaking worlds.
Josh Sidman: So… maybe 3 years ago, I created the Silvio Gassell Foundation, built a website, And almost immediately.
Josh Sidman: interesting things started coming my way, including an invitation from the Henry George School to give a course on… a virtual course on Silvio Gassel, and I did that
Josh Sidman: close to 2 years ago now. It's… it's now available on… on YouTube. And that gave birth to…
Josh Sidman: a podcast, which we called Economy 2.0. Which was intended to be… a… An arena in which
Josh Sidman: People like myself, who are advocating for specific alternative models to the economic status quo, can come together and
Josh Sidman: And have dialogue, and potentially
Josh Sidman: collaborate, or at least to be aware of each other's… of each other's existence. Because what became clear to me in the process of advocating for a specific point of view, a specific alternative,
Josh Sidman: model is that there are a lot of people who are doing the same with their own
Josh Sidman: preferred alternative models, but they're not talking to each other, for the most part. They're kind of operating in… in their own bubbles.
Josh Sidman: And it's quite challenging
Josh Sidman: to connect those bubbles, because each… each one is very heavily invested in a very… in a specific point of view. And when somebody else comes along and says, well, no.
Josh Sidman: Do it this way, not your way.
Josh Sidman: they are… they're challenging, you know, that person's whole identity, in a sense.
Josh Sidman: And… and it's… it's… it's very unlikely that those…
Josh Sidman: Two things, those two bubbles, are going to come together in a fruitful way.
Josh Sidman: So I felt that there needed to be an arena for dialogue, and that was the purpose of the first season of Economy 2.0, which was, I think… I think we did 20 episodes, each one
Josh Sidman: I had an invited… an invited guest who had some perspective on what
Josh Sidman: an alternative economic future might look like. And it was a conversation between myself and that guest with an audience. The audience was invited to participate.
Josh Sidman: And it was a very good series of conversations. It kind of ran its course, and we decided not to continue in that format.
Josh Sidman: but I made, so many…
Josh Sidman: really promising connections, which this conversation grew out of. I connected with Nicholas Franca, who was the organizer of the Monetary Diversity.
Chris Cook: Yep.
Josh Sidman: organization that… that Paul and I connected through, and…
Josh Sidman: It's clear to me that this is,
Josh Sidman: a fertile soil that deserves to be cultivated.
Josh Sidman: And the question is how to do that. And…
Josh Sidman: I'm gonna try to wrap this up, because I've already gone on at length, but, to bring us up to the moment.
Josh Sidman: I've… I personally want to initiate Two or three interrelated conversations.
Josh Sidman: But I have been holding off on starting them.
Josh Sidman: Because I feel the lack of… a communications…
Josh Sidman: paradigm that is adequate to the conversations that I want to have.
Josh Sidman: a YouTube video of a conversation, is… is nice.
Josh Sidman: It's a good way of sharing
Josh Sidman: A conversation, but it does not…
Josh Sidman: It does not include all of the people who view it after the fact, and might have something to contribute to the conversation.
Josh Sidman: And that's… And that is related to another Challenge, which is…
Josh Sidman: time zones. All of us are in different parts of the world, and a bunch of our potential collaborators are in other time zones, and it's virtually impossible to get everyone you want
Josh Sidman: Together, at one time.
Josh Sidman: In order to have a really inclusive conversation.
Josh Sidman: So the idea of how to conduct what I call an asynchronous meeting is what
Josh Sidman: I think this conversation is primarily about how could we have…
Josh Sidman: something that resembles a YouTube video, but is more inclusive and more interactive, so that
Josh Sidman: For someone else who couldn't be there during the recording, but is an important
Josh Sidman: participant, or potential participant, how can that person be included in the conversation in a full way, rather than, you know, looking at a YouTube video and maybe typing in a YouTube comment their input?
Josh Sidman: So, so the idea that we have been discussing for a couple of weeks now is whether we could create
Josh Sidman: A format where there is a video recording, and that's the base layer of an ongoing conversation.
Josh Sidman: That other people can then come into at their leisure, and go through and participate
Josh Sidman: exactly when and how they want to. So, for example, you might have a 2-hour recording, and at minute 37, there's a specific topic being discussed that you, Chris, want to
Josh Sidman: want to…
Josh Sidman: give some input about, but you weren't there. You can go in at minute 37, you can…
Josh Sidman: insert your input in whatever format you're comfortable with. It could be text, it could be audio, it could be video, and you…
Josh Sidman: let's say you choose video. You record, yourself responding to the point, and you insert it into the original recording. It becomes part of
Josh Sidman: the… The ongoing asynchronous meeting.
Josh Sidman: So, yeah, I guess I'll leave it there.
Josh Sidman: this… this… Architecture for a new kind of
Josh Sidman: inclusive, asynchronous conversation is what I want to have
Josh Sidman: available to me before I initiate these
Josh Sidman: conversations which are very important to me, but that I don't want to start
Josh Sidman: in the form of a YouTube video, or a traditional Zoom meeting.
Josh Sidman: So, yeah, that's what we've been working on.
Chris Cook: Hmm.
Chris Cook: Fascinating.
An_Maonaigh: Oh, Chris, if you can introduce yourselves to the other brothers, and then we can open up some space for this,
An_Maonaigh: Does percolation…
Chris Cook: Yeah, just, like, a quick response to what I just heard about
Chris Cook: annotations, I mean, I've immediately struck my…
Chris Cook: Twitter, which I insist on calling it, and the community notes.
Chris Cook: As a response to a tweet. Anyway, about me, yeah, oof.
Chris Cook: Jack of all trades and master of none, really. Started out in the UK in insolvency. That was my first job in insolvency, working for the Department of Trade. So, forensic accounting.
Chris Cook: was part of it, finding out where people went bust, prosecuting miscreants, which you occasionally have. From there, I went to
Chris Cook: Again, in the DTI, more forensic accounting, but this time, potentially criminal company fraud investigation branch at the DTI in London. That took me in the mid-80s into the City of London, which was just starting to become regulated.
Chris Cook: And so I joined one of the first regulators in the commodity markets.
Chris Cook: In 1986, which was a really fascinating time, so I got to learn a great deal about regulation, which was just beginning then. I think of myself as the, if you know your Lord of the Rings, like the Tom Bombadil of regulation. I was there before it even existed, and I'm…
Chris Cook: I'm still there, in a sense. And, in 1990, I became a director of what's now the biggest global energy exchange, which was not the biggest then, but was growing rapidly. And, and for 6 years, grew with that job, and…
Chris Cook: Found myself,
Chris Cook: very, very, very interested in market development from the point of view of making improvements in a way that is consistent with a fair market. And so looking at regulation as quality control rather than business prevention.
Chris Cook: Which it seems to have become.
Chris Cook: And I, for instance, designed the UK natural gas futures market. That was my legal design, but it was…
Chris Cook: As a response to a market in buying and selling molecules of
Chris Cook: methane, which is stark-staring bonkers, and should be exterminated from the earth. But the point being, the futures contract is a means of actually managing the risk.
Chris Cook: of commodity trading, and I could talk about the electricity markets since then, et cetera, et cetera. But by 19896, this is sort of getting into the field of view that we're here talking about.
Chris Cook: I first got exposed to the internet, really, around that time, mid-90s, and the first really interesting,
Chris Cook: point about it came, when I went to see… I went to a meeting held by…
Chris Cook: and I… it was to do with the tran… it was to do with how goods, oil in particular, actually transit the world, and it was to do with documents of title.
Chris Cook: How is it you can actually prove that you own the oil on the ship, for instance? And things called bills of lading. Deeply technical, very few people have ever heard of them, but integral to global trade in commodities. And, and I went to a meeting
Chris Cook: Looking at electronic.
Chris Cook: Basically, making electronic, making virtual, these complex
Chris Cook: paper documents, and it was called, it was called Bolero, Bills of Lading Electronic Registration Organization. And that was my first exposure to, digitizing and digital markets globally, although we were actually then building
Chris Cook: the world's first Windows-based trading system.
Chris Cook: at the exchange I was at, we were pretty bloody innovative. And,
Chris Cook: So I got really interested in that, and its connection to an organization called, the,
Chris Cook: Protection and Indemnity Club. Who here has heard of a P&I club? Probably very few among you. You have, Paul. I know that. But a protection and indemnity club is basically a global framework for mutual assurance.
Chris Cook: of risk that the middleman, Lloyds in this case, will not take. 90% of global shipping
Chris Cook: is mutually assured, and has been for 150 years, for certain risks that the middleman will not cover. So, I was focused then, from that point on, with global mutual agreements.
Chris Cook: disintermediation, cutting out the middleman, because I immediately, thought then, and then Napster popped up, when a 19-year-old
Chris Cook: by introducing file sharing made redundant the global business model of the music industry. And that struck me deeply in, I think that was 98.
Chris Cook: And at that point, I put together a,
Chris Cook: I put together a dot-com. It was called,
Chris Cook: the iteration was oil clear, but I called it new clear. It was paperless trade confirmation, okay? Whenever a trade took place internationally, you'd make a phone call, and the minute you put the phone down, you would send a fax or a telex to confirm the transaction you did.
Chris Cook: legally binding. And I put together a, a project called… and it was Oil Clear, it was the first iteration, and it was very simple, consisted of three things. One was a messaging system.
Chris Cook: Yahoo Chat was predominant then.
Chris Cook: Second thing was a shared database. This was 10 years before the blockchain came along and fucked things up. And then, the third thing, and this is the mutual agreement.
Chris Cook: like the P&I club agreement, was a global club agreement, if you will, that the minute that… when I clicked the mouse to accept the transaction message that you sent to me.
Chris Cook: And the trade dropped into the database, then we were both legally bound by it.
Chris Cook: And that… I had…
Chris Cook: at least two directors from every, you know, from each global exchange put personal money into it. Top venture capitalists put personal money into it. Everybody wanted to own it.
Chris Cook: If the sell side owned it, the buy side wouldn't use it. That was the problem. And if the buy side owned it, the sell side wouldn't use it. Because what I'd come up with was a global utility for
Chris Cook: Trade capture, capturing and confirming transactions.
Chris Cook: And in the end, I found that I couldn't…
Chris Cook: Surmount that business model problem, of…
Chris Cook: basically each side of the market, you know, not wanting to, anybody else to own it. And after that, the money ran out, I blew the whistle on what the investment banks were doing in the oil market, inadvertently, lost everything I had, home, family, everything, had to start again from scratch, and rebuilt my life on,
Chris Cook: You know, from scratch, in a sense. Questioned everything.
Chris Cook: literally questioned everything. I thought I understood how markets… money markets worked. I realized I didn't. And cutting out about 8 years of time, I was then asked, after the financial crash, which
Chris Cook: I wasn't the only one who saw it coming. I was asked by the former Minister of defense of the UK, Lord Reed, to become a Senior Research Fellow at the Institute for Strategy, Resilience and Security at UCL.
Chris Cook: Which was basically set up to look… to look at, well, what does a resilient financial system even look like, and could we create one?
Chris Cook: And over a period of 15 years, and many, many,
Chris Cook: very interesting experiences over the… over the period. We think we've actually finally got there.
Chris Cook: And come up with some ideas, and along the way, I think there is no…
Chris Cook: strand of economic history, including Giselle, which I haven't looked at, and, and seen, and from my own personal opinion, well, this was valid, this was not, something we all do.
Chris Cook: And tried to actually analyze and codify and extract lessons, and along the way, I've written down huge amounts. Paul will
Chris Cook: can speak to that. I sent an email recent… just before this, just with a few links to some of the things that I'd done. So a presentation to… a submission to the… to a parliamentary committee, a peer-to-peer
Chris Cook: document on FinTech 2.0, but… just quickly.
Chris Cook: That's all context. I just wanted to make clear my view in relation to market paradigms and economic paradigms. I… I start from the basis that markets, the first iteration of markets, 1.0,
Chris Cook: was physical presence, when people were physically present, and transacted physically, and maybe gave time to pay to each other, etc, etc. So that market was, and is.
Chris Cook: Physical market presence, but disconnected from other markets.
Chris Cook: Over the centuries, what we saw via communications and travel and all the rest of it was reaching the current market paradigm of
Chris Cook: intermediate markets, middlemen, whatever the form they are. And that market is centralized.
Chris Cook: But connected. This is Market Paradigm 2.0, the one that I was a director of a global exchange in.
Chris Cook: And you have all the intermediaries for all the different economic functions. But the one that we're going to, and rapidly.
Chris Cook: Market 3.0 is not that you're physically present, it's not that you're present through an intermediary, it's that you are present on the network.
Chris Cook: And everything that I've been about has been, what are the legal agreements, the, what are the services that we can look to, how is that going to work? And it's, as Guri says, it's completely people-centric.
Chris Cook: completely people-centric, and the end game, I believe, and this so much ties into what you're doing, Yuri, is
Chris Cook: And I've seen it, this is how I've always seen it, that I will have a device
Chris Cook: And on that device will be 7 lines of code. Like Stripe, and there's 7 lines of code, but everything else is an API. Everything else
Chris Cook: That is my little personal operating system, and everything else is protocols.
Chris Cook: Everything else is protocols. And,
Chris Cook: You know, depending on the language that you use. That has always been my vision for 30 years. I believe we are approaching the ability to do that, and it's not just about, networks.
Chris Cook: Networks is not enough. We'd be captured by Amazon Web Services if it were.
Chris Cook: Broadcast, it's a combination of broadcast data one way.
Chris Cook: and internet-backed channels and communications the other. And I'm absolutely sure, having worked on this for 30 years, that it's possible to have a completely
Chris Cook: You know, foolproof, mechanism what is it you call it? Zero knowledge?
Chris Cook: completely possible with these elements constructed in the right way. So, it's a pleasure and a privilege to be talking to the people that you've brought to this space, Paul. I know you don't… you work to… you use your instinct with these things, and I'm following it,
Chris Cook: As best I can. And thanks for bearing with me for so long.
An_Maonaigh: I personally would follow you anywhere, you're… I keep calling you the prophet, so you're my prophet.
An_Maonaigh: So, welcoming, tune fan Sambik, welcome!
Josh Sidman: Can I briefly introduce Toyne, and then… and then he can introduce himself?
Josh Sidman: So, Toyne is one of the many fruitful connections that I made through the Economy 2.0 series. He was a guest on an episode. He… I don't even remember how we first connected, but he essentially arrived at
Josh Sidman: some of the same conclusions and ideas that Silvio Gassel did independently of Silvio Gassel, and was, had already created and was advocating for this
Josh Sidman: alternative monetary model that he can tell us about.
Josh Sidman: And, he's very, digitally savvy. I am not. I think, Chris and Yuri, you guys sound like you are… Not particularly.
Chris Cook: really, Josh.
Chris Cook: I know enough to know what I don't know.
Josh Sidman: Right, well, I don't even know that.
Josh Sidman: But Toyne… Toyne is one of those
Josh Sidman: I would describe him as a visionary who
Josh Sidman: up until recently, has kind of been operating in a bubble, like all of the other visionaries. And…
Josh Sidman: And as soon as we started communicating, it was clear to me that we were…
Josh Sidman: kindred spirits, so to speak, that we, shared a lot of common values and ideas, and that we needed to be in communication with each other. So, Toyne, I'll let you introduce yourself, tell us about
Josh Sidman: Who you are, what you've done, how you arrive at this, at being part of this conversation.
teunvansambeek: Yeah, thank you, Josh. Can you all hear me very well?
Chris Cook: Yep.
teunvansambeek: Okay, great. Yeah, so, thank you just again for this very nice introduction. I'm Tony von Somberg, but most of the time people call me Tony, because my name is quite difficult to pronounce for most languages. I'm from the Netherlands.
teunvansambeek: I live in, at the moment in Kigali, in Rwanda.
teunvansambeek: But I worked all my life in construction, basically, in the Netherlands. I'm a construction engineer, but also, like, an IT…
teunvansambeek: a self, sort of self-educated IT guy, I was programming before.
teunvansambeek: Let's say, home computers exist.
teunvansambeek: on my, Texas, calculator, and, did it ever since, and,
teunvansambeek: I'm also sort of a mathematician, econometrics. I think my… is that my… my… yeah, my camera is just misbehaving, that's why I logged out, so if it's too bad, then I'll… I'll try to fix that.
teunvansambeek: But,
teunvansambeek: So, let's say 15 years ago, I went to Africa to see if I could build a precast concrete factory for affordable housing.
teunvansambeek: Affordable mass housing.
teunvansambeek: And, because of that, I studied the market, so what is the income of people, what can they afford, and at what level, let's say, what is the cheapest sort of house that you can build.
teunvansambeek: If you're using precast, let's say, highly automated precast concrete technology, I work together with some companies in Germany and Italy that have, let's say, a market leader in those technologies.
teunvansambeek: But then I sort of figured out, and that was, like, 10 years ago, that even if you go down to the…
teunvansambeek: the cheapest possible price, and then you need to think about, let's say, a two-bedroom apartment with, everything finished, with a parking lot outside. You can build that. In that time, it was, like, $12,000. I think. In the meantime, it's something like $15,000.
teunvansambeek: So you could build a fully finished apartment.
teunvansambeek: But for that price, let's say half of the people that are living in Africa are not able to buy it with a mortgage, or even rent it. So even if you can get to the lowest price of something that you can still call a house, that doesn't have a dirt floor.
teunvansambeek: then, let's say, these people cannot afford it. So, my question then was, is there something wrong with the financial system? Another indicator was, like.
teunvansambeek: I think the war in Afghanistan costed, I think, $14 trillion.
teunvansambeek: And, with that amount of money, you could house
teunvansambeek: forever, for free, without a mortgage, half of the world population. So only this war.
teunvansambeek: Costed, let's say, so much that you could house half of the population, which means that if you do that, there is no incentive for people to
teunvansambeek: steal land or anything from the other countries. So, there's no incentive to go to war anyway, because people… sort of… that is the idea of war, that you want to…
teunvansambeek: get stuff to, to make your, your life sort of worthwhile, and… and get, get a proper house. So, so that, that was sort of my, my, starting, starting point. Okay, I said, okay, something is really bad.
teunvansambeek: And that was the time that, sort of, Bitcoin broke through, and I quickly knew exactly how it works, because I read the white papers, and I looked at some of the programs, so I know how hashing works, how I know how…
teunvansambeek: the blockchain works, so I can't program it myself, and I was thinking about creating something that is, sort of…
teunvansambeek: like a… that was my first idea, to create a sort of universal basic income system based on cryptocurrency technology, where you could solve this, this, this financial, let's say.
teunvansambeek: I call it… it's like a disruption, it's like the gap. You know, the gap is so immense that something should be done.
teunvansambeek: So that's… that's when I started to… to… to think about it, write about it, read about it, and
teunvansambeek: And because of my job, I have, like.
teunvansambeek: a lot of time, to do this. So, basically, the last 10 years, I spent, like, 80, probably, like, 80 hours a week.
teunvansambeek: just to investigate this, doing… doing… making ideas, programming, stuff like that, and… and reading about it, and things like that. So,
teunvansambeek: I came to the conclusion that, let's say, if I… I'm gonna go through that very shortly. I created a system, it's called OneCoin Per Hour.
teunvansambeek: to… let's say there are a few issues that you want to resolve. It has to do with, with,
teunvansambeek: Basically, with monopolies, you want to, sort of.
teunvansambeek: get rid of, I call it four… four monopolies, which two have to do with the creation of money, and the other ones have to do with land and… and with IP rights. These, let's say, four…
teunvansambeek: For,
teunvansambeek: let's call them legal system, because it's, like, legal… legally set up. They create scarcity. And to me, scarcity is artificial. So any scarcity that we have in the world is artificial. So.
teunvansambeek: And that's why my… I wrote a book about it, it's called, Abondomi. It's all… it's,
teunvansambeek: like, the mirror image of the economy, which is… economy is like the science of scarcity, and I try to focus on, let's say, the science of abundance. So how can we create abundance for everybody? So, and you look at the years, the U.S is big enough to do that.
teunvansambeek: So,
teunvansambeek: But obviously, let's say the financial system is the most, let's say, used system to create scarcity, and…
teunvansambeek: derived from the financial system, you have, let's say, legal systems that has to do with land ownership and with IP rights and patents and things like that. So my first focus was the financial system.
teunvansambeek: If you look at the… I always say there are two monopolies there. One is the creation of money. That is, let's say, one monopoly, the other one is insight in transactions.
teunvansambeek: So, because when you have the monopoly of inside in transactions, you also have the monopoly, basically, of creation of money. Because if you're the only one that can see all the transactions, then you can create on-the-site money that nobody else can see, and that's… that's how the…
teunvansambeek: let's say the, the, the creation of money, monopoly work. So they, they, those two go together.
teunvansambeek: And I'm always, like, trying to mirror things, so I try to do the opposite, so if this is bad, so what is the opposite? So, the opposite is to, let's say, democratize the creation of money.
teunvansambeek: Which means that everybody, instead of having a very small group of people, which is, to me, it's like 10 families that just create money out of thin air.
teunvansambeek: And, everything is sort of derived from that. Instead of having that.
teunvansambeek: each time you create money, everybody that participates in the financial system should get a portion of that freshly created money. So, so you want to have a system going on like that to sort of get rid of that first monopoly. The second monopoly is
teunvansambeek: every transaction should be transparent to everybody, because there is no other way to fight, let's say, the monopoly of insider money, if not everybody can see. You know, it's…
teunvansambeek: Nobody will spend all this day to check 8 billion accounts, but you need to be able, if you want to pin more points to one account, you need to be able to look at what is going on there. And to me, that has to do with the creation of, let's say, the money that we are using day to day.
teunvansambeek: On top of that financial system, you can… because…
teunvansambeek: you won't get rid of gold, you won't get rid of diamonds, so you can still build, let's say, cryptocurrencies on top of what I call ethical money, a money system that is fair to everybody.
teunvansambeek: So, you can still build those systems on top of it, but let's say the base… the base money.
teunvansambeek: And to me, it's like the money we use to buy bread, so, you know, I don't care if anybody sees that I bought bread, or went to a restaurant, or so. So these basic transactions, everybody can see. If I want to do something that other people will see, then I will find another way, using cryptocurrencies or anything, that nobody can see that. But that is on top, and that has an other purpose.
teunvansambeek: The first purpose you have is to create… I call it lubricating the… let's say, barter. Basically, what you want to do with money is lubricate barter, because barter is not very handy. So…
teunvansambeek: And if you do that,
teunvansambeek: So that is sort of the system, and it's, let's say, one… I call it one coin per hour.
teunvansambeek: How does this work? And it's a very simple formula. If you have one coin per hour, so if you give everybody one coin per hour, you create, let's say, 8 billion coins every hour.
teunvansambeek: which is, let's say, an infinite amount of inflation. So you want to curb that inflation, and you can simply do that by using demurage, or let's say, a negative interest rate.
teunvansambeek: So you just… and you do… you also do that per hour.
teunvansambeek: And what I did is I used the number 1 divided by 20,000, or you can also say 0.99995.
teunvansambeek: And it's simple math, so if I use a demorage of, let's say, that I multiply all the money that I have with a factor of 0.99995 every hour, then if I do that infinitive.
teunvansambeek: then I end up with 20,000 coins. So if I don't spend anything.
teunvansambeek: I get one coin every hour, and I have a demorage of that percentage, then I end up with 20,000 coins, which means that if everybody does this, you get a fixed money supply per person of 20,000 coins.
teunvansambeek: And that is very important, because when you have a fixed money supply, you don't have inflation and deflation anymore, it just goes away.
teunvansambeek: So then you have, let's say, a basis of
teunvansambeek: doing, of trading with each other. And the nice thing about The… the percentage is that…
teunvansambeek: let's say, if you are a millionaire, then you will pay, let's say, 50… $50 or 50 coins every hour, but if you have no money, you don't pay anything, because the demorage is a percentage over nothing. So you don't lose nothing. So people that have nothing will automatically get one coin every hour, which will be enough to, sort of.
teunvansambeek: buy food and live. It's like a social security system.
teunvansambeek: And this way, you just pump money around. So this is how you create money, how you make sure that the money supply is always constant, and that there is a sort of a social security.
teunvansambeek: net, but also that if you have a lot of money, you can still become a millionaire, but you have quite a good incentive, because on a yearly base, you're talking about a 30%, let's say, a 30% cut that goes off your
teunvansambeek: of your, of your, let's say, your, your balance, to invest it. So you want to invest that money. You don't want to hold the money, you want to invest it in houses or in land or whatever you can buy.
teunvansambeek: To, to make sure your money doesn't just fly away.
teunvansambeek: And when you die, your money just disappears, so you can still… so your inheritance can be used by your children, but because you're dead, you're not generating one coin per hour anymore.
teunvansambeek: So the money supply goes down with 20,000 if one person dies. So that means that, compared to the amount of people that are alive, the money supply is always sort of equal, and that is,
teunvansambeek: So you solve, let's say, two issues, or two, three, three issues, actually, in one system.
teunvansambeek: So, no, so that's what I came up with. I programmed it already, it's running. You can go to my website, you can make an account, and once you have an account, then you start receiving… you start with 1,000 coins just to get going, and then you start receiving one coin every hour.
teunvansambeek: And you will see that in a period of, like, 5 years, you already reached 20,000. So it goes quite quickly to get to the full money supply.
teunvansambeek: So… so that's what I came up with, then I started to write a book about it, so I got a book, it's called Abundant… you can go to my site, abundantMe.com, you can download the book there.
teunvansambeek: And so somebody told me, what you're doing with this negative interest, because I didn't know it was Demiraj yet.
teunvansambeek: So the name was Dame Roger, so somebody told me, oh, you need to look at Silvio Gazelle's… I knew about the Wergel case, but I didn't really went into the, let's say, the science that was behind it.
teunvansambeek: in Virgo, and then I figured out… found out about Silvio Gazelle, and then I contacted, Josh.
teunvansambeek: Because I knew that, or I learned on the internet that he was sort of the guy to meet, and that we had a podcast, and here I am.
teunvansambeek: So… That's sort of my story.
An_Maonaigh: Wow, toying.
An_Maonaigh: Another prophet, another genius. Wow, we have a room full of genii.
An_Maonaigh: And, aren't we blessed that we can call in from Peru, and Hungary, and Scotland, and Ireland, Rwanda?
An_Maonaigh: So, something going on in the world which allows us to connect together. Toyne, can you put in the link to your URL in the chat, just to make sure the spelling is right? Yeah. Of your book?
An_Maonaigh: And I'm curious, Toyne, have you launched it, in Rwanda, or anywhere else?
teunvansambeek: No, anybody can, so, basically, there are two things. I have a website, it's called Abundome, but I'm just… at the moment, I've just started to… to transfer it, because I did a massive update of my financial program.
teunvansambeek: My financial program is… I'll put it in the… let's see, is this everyone? Yeah, everyone? I'll put it in now, it's,
teunvansambeek: One coin edge.
teunvansambeek: dot com.
An_Maonaigh: Beautiful.
teunvansambeek: Yeah.
teunvansambeek: So that's the… that is the, let's say, the financial system, and then I have this.
teunvansambeek: I'm done.
teunvansambeek: Good man.
teunvansambeek: Cool.
teunvansambeek: So, this is the website, which is a bit old, but I'm gonna redo that one. But this is basically the first thing that you see is download the book, you can click on it, and then you download my book, which is the most important thing, I think.
teunvansambeek: So the book I wrote a year ago, explaining about basically these four, these four, monopolies.
teunvansambeek: How we can fight it, yeah, and how this, let's say, this financial system also sort of…
teunvansambeek: Could have a place in that.
teunvansambeek: I think that… so there… there's perhaps one thing I need to add, which is quite an important conversation that I had from the beginning.
teunvansambeek: is, so how do you start with this? Because…
teunvansambeek: Can you start with, let's say, a small community that uses this type of money, and then sort of…
teunvansambeek: becomes popular and conquers the world, sort of. Is that possible or not? And, in the beginning, I, as, let's say, as any
teunvansambeek: person that studies cryptocurrencies. All these initiatives, they have sort of the idea, okay.
teunvansambeek: we're gonna launch this, it's now… it's… the technology is very good, so, nobody can see us, and nobody can stop this, and so with… with, let's say, this crypto, we can fight… we can fight the world.
teunvansambeek: to me, that, that was… that's how I also started, but in the time, let's say in the last 5-6 years.
teunvansambeek: I… especially 2 years ago, when you really think about it.
teunvansambeek: It doesn't really make sense, because you are fighting, you try to fight the system.
teunvansambeek: But the system is so… is so bad.
teunvansambeek: that it will try to fight back, and it will just… just destroy you, probably. So, I am not a fan of… I call it a sort of techno… I'm not a fan of the technology push.
teunvansambeek: I sh… I think it should be, let's say it's not technology, but it's like,
teunvansambeek: What is the English word? It should be a push, let's say, from,
teunvansambeek: philosophy. It should be here, philosophy… a philosophy push. Sorry, pull.
teunvansambeek: So people first need to understand What is the philosophy? Before…
Gyuri: Exactly.
teunvansambeek: You start pushing a technology.
teunvansambeek: So, and that is a very important distinction, because if you…
teunvansambeek: Try to do a technology push.
teunvansambeek: then you create a technology that is sort of fighting, that needs to fight the rest. And you can do that only by going, let's say, underground and make it everything hidden, but
teunvansambeek: the… the issue, what we are fighting, is we want to have transparency. So, how are you gonna mix, let's say, transparency with… with…
teunvansambeek: Fighting the system, because
teunvansambeek: you're basically showing everything that you do, and so the people that are fighting you will just know, okay, this is the group that we need to destroy, this is what we need to cancel or to make illegal. It doesn't work. So, that's why I wrote my book.
teunvansambeek: just to explain the philosophy about abundance, and… and if you look at what's going on in the Strait of Hormuz, that is, to me, is like this cool example of creating scarcity. So they're just…
teunvansambeek: pushing more scarcity to push more control, because they need more control, because they know people are waking up, and so they, they try to push that at the moment. Okay, Josh, you, you, you, you're on.
teunvansambeek: I see, yeah.
Josh Sidman: Yeah, so…
Josh Sidman: I want to… I wanna… focus on…
Josh Sidman: something that you and I, Toyne, do not agree on.
Josh Sidman: For the purpose of…
Josh Sidman: bringing this conversation back to what… what I think we're all here to discuss, which is how to…
Josh Sidman: How to have better conversations, and how to… Enable our different visions to…
Josh Sidman: coexist and potentially compete with each other in actual practice. So.
Josh Sidman: Toyne, you said that you believe it is important for the money supply to be fixed relative to the population, that that is the solution to inflation or deflation. I don't agree with that point.
Josh Sidman: So what do we do about that? We could, debate endlessly about economic theory until one of us concedes. That might never happen.
Josh Sidman: or… We could each… build our…
Josh Sidman: visions and set them up to operate side by side in what I refer to as a sandbox. A sandbox is a play space in which each of us can
Josh Sidman: To the extent that we're capable of, manifest
Josh Sidman: a working model of our ideas, and… and open it up for the participation of anyone who finds it interesting or compelling. And so… so you and I, Toyne, who agree
Josh Sidman: on maybe 80% or 90%, but have different understandings of 10 or 20%, can set up our… our…
Josh Sidman: respective projects, both in the same sandbox, and we can see how they work. Maybe one…
Josh Sidman: maybe one… my… the reason why I don't agree with the idea of a fixed money supply is because I think that that would be inherently, I think it would create instability. I think that money supply needs to be flexible.
Josh Sidman: like I said, we… I don't think that the best way to resolve that difference of opinion is to argue about it endlessly. I think that ultimately, you need to just test them out side by side. And so, if you set up your system, and I set up my system, one has a fixed money supply, another has a different model for regulating the money supply, then… and one
Josh Sidman: performs… Better or worse than the other.
teunvansambeek: Yeah.
Josh Sidman: Then there will be concrete evidence to persuade
Josh Sidman: the group that has gravitated toward one to move over to the other in a non-coerced way. One only moves to a different model when one is convinced that it's a better one.
Josh Sidman: And… The problem of the bubbles
Josh Sidman: is… is really a formidable problem. You've got An incredibly rich, bubble.
Josh Sidman: that…
Josh Sidman: there's a… there's a… there's a high hurdle to entering your bubble, and I think you're experiencing that challenge in terms of
Josh Sidman: getting people to come and participate in your system.
Josh Sidman: Whereas if we… if we all come together around this mission of creating a sandbox that is inclusive, that
Josh Sidman: your vision does not in any way detract from my vision, that they… that they can be set up side by side, then we're, I think, potentially
Josh Sidman: bringing those bubbles together in a way that can build some real momentum. So… so to me, what the foundation of what I'm here for, is
Josh Sidman: A conversation, a new… a new conversation paradigm, and a sandbox. Can we… and the conversation is about the sandbox.
Josh Sidman: How do we create the sandbox, and how do we facilitate the conversation? That is what I think…
Josh Sidman: I'm here for.
teunvansambeek: So, let me first respond to that, if I may.
teunvansambeek: So.
teunvansambeek: I always say so, because I… you're very right, saying I'm sort of in a bubble. I did it all by my own. I didn't have help.
teunvansambeek: Sort of. I just looked at it and gave it my best shot.
teunvansambeek: And I always said, that's… once I can show people what it is that I'm talking about.
teunvansambeek: then we can look at it and see if we can improve it, or where did I go wrong in my reasoning, or is there any mistake, and I'm very open to that. That is also a reason I don't really want to launch it like this is it, because when you launch something.
teunvansambeek: And, an example is, Kortel.
teunvansambeek: I really like Portal, for example. It's also sort of a cryptocurrency, but it doesn't work with, let's say, it works with, let's say, if you keep the blockchain alive, then you get coins. So it is a bit different than others.
teunvansambeek: But it's very close to already what I am doing, sort of. I really like that idea, but they launched it, and because they launched it, now they're making concessions, so now they're having trading… made trading possible with, let's say, fiat currencies.
teunvansambeek: And it's not getting better, it's getting worse because of that, because they sort of want to survive in this world, which is a shame, because
teunvansambeek: The idea is good, but once you start to launch it.
teunvansambeek: You, you, you get all the other, let's say,
teunvansambeek: decisions to make, because you want to keep it alive, or is it about keeping this thing alive, or is it about making the best thing possible?
teunvansambeek: And that's what I exactly want…
teunvansambeek: to do what you say, I want to show what I… what I've made, and…
teunvansambeek: And if other people can make other things, then just compare it, and what are the best things that we can derive out of it, so that we know how to continue. And that's also why I reached out to you, so that other people that sort of study this, that know what they're talking about, can look at this and say, okay.
teunvansambeek: I don't like your solution for deflation, inflation, or you're making a mistake here and there. And I think there are many
teunvansambeek: possibilities to solve this.
teunvansambeek: there are… let's say you can turn buttons, or you can press buttons in my one coin per hour system. For example, you can change the demirage if there are economic, let's say, reasons to change the parameters in your system.
teunvansambeek: Why not? But first, somebody needs to convince me that it's necessary, because, for example, if I look at
teunvansambeek: inflation. 120 years ago, there was, like, $1 trillion in the world. Now there is $350 trillions going around in the world.
teunvansambeek: That has all been created outside our knowledge, because somebody created it, and somebody owned it, and borrowed it out to other people, which we allowed, so this money supply has just exploded in the last 120 years.
teunvansambeek: without…
teunvansambeek: real big effect here. The only effect is that most people are poor now, because the people that print money can control scarcity. But it doesn't sort of…
teunvansambeek: You have the biggest, let's say, industrial development in perhaps the last 100,000 years. So inflation is not really causing, let's say, everything to collapse.
teunvansambeek: But the question is, if we… do we want… if you, let's say, allow the money supply to be changing, the question will be, so how do you do that in a fair way? And that's a discussion that you need to have. And I'm very glad to be here, to have that discussion with people that have these ideas.
teunvansambeek: Because otherwise, I'd be only in my bubble.
An_Maonaigh: I'd like to commend,
An_Maonaigh: Brothers, I think that's also why I'm here, because I'm a dialogue practitioner, as well as we're creating
An_Maonaigh: an economic system based on the ancient principles of Breton law, so I come with a number of different hats here.
An_Maonaigh: And what I'd like to, witness…
An_Maonaigh: is that dialogue, as a methodology, as I learned it from David Bohm, and I'll put that in the chat.
An_Maonaigh: I learned dialogue from David Bohm.
An_Maonaigh: And it provides the process where two competing ideas, an idea of fixed money supply and an idea of flexible money supply.
An_Maonaigh: Can be in a big enough container.
An_Maonaigh: Where they can both live and operate and thrive, and so I think that's partly why I'm here.
An_Maonaigh: And I'm just looking at the time.
An_Maonaigh: We're nearly on 2 hours, that's what we had allowed, and I'm not suggesting we finish, but I'm just saying, we're here together in this particular group, we're meeting every 2 weeks for now.
An_Maonaigh: To see if we can provide a continuous dialogue methodology
An_Maonaigh: that would be able to bring in other people who aren't here in this meeting. Michael's not here, Guillen is not here.
An_Maonaigh: Cam is not here. How do we create The richness of this?
An_Maonaigh: which we can share. Obviously, we'll give them the Zoom call.
An_Maonaigh: But we're also looking for a way for those people who aren't present at this time
An_Maonaigh: To fully think and feel into this
An_Maonaigh: Artifact, which is our Zoom call, to be able to look at the chat, to be able to look at the transcript.
An_Maonaigh: and contribute their wisdom and insights as well. So this is why we've convened in these every two weeks. We're not here to launch new economic systems. Everybody in this room has launched an economic system.
An_Maonaigh: in their own separate bubbles. And so what we're looking for is a…
An_Maonaigh: An ocean, so that all the bubbles can live,
An_Maonaigh: heartily, and in a state of abundance. So that's kind of why we're here. We're trying to produce a dialogic methodology.
An_Maonaigh: So we're not here to argue about inflation.
An_Maonaigh: And I think what dialogue does, it creates the opportunity for us to create this sandbox to speak at a philosophical level.
An_Maonaigh: So that when you go and test, Abundame, and if you test NES that Josh has, or if we want to do a system called Grow, or if Chris is implementing something in Scotland.
An_Maonaigh: that we are all coming from a space where we're operating and contributing, as Guri has been saying, as an indie web.
An_Maonaigh: You know, with some of the technical tools that Guri's talking about, with some of the technical architecture for the money systems, with the dialogic methodology.
An_Maonaigh: So I just wanted to bring that in. Dialogue is a space where this is possible, and this is our third dialogue. We call these dialogues.
An_Maonaigh: And we'll have one in two weeks, where some people will do some work, they'll share information, and etc. So that's why we're here, to create the continuous dialogue.
An_Maonaigh: And because we'd allowed 2 hours, I think, and we're in 90 minutes now, so I just want to say we're allowing 30 minutes to percolate.
An_Maonaigh: And if people have commitments for 2 hours, that 30 minutes is, is a timestamp. So I just want to leave the space open now. Thank you.
Gyuri: Hello?
Gyuri: I'm kidding.
teunvansambeek: Yeah, go ahead.
Gyuri: Well, I couldn't find the button to raise my hand.
Gyuri: I don't know, I just can't find it. Well, thank you, Tim, or Tom, or what was it, Tim?
teunvansambeek: Et turn.
teunvansambeek: Tony, but you can also call me Tony, but it's Tone.
Gyuri: Tony, that's it, that's it, that's it, that's it. And call me Julie. Jury is good enough, you know. Jury, yeah, dog jury. And Josh, I think I'm so happy to hear from you what exactly I want to tell you.
Gyuri: That you see that the most important thing… it's very important, the economy and all these things, and I'm very into this.
Gyuri: But we really need to figure out how we can actually have conversations which last.
Gyuri: Which permanent, which are resumable.
Gyuri: And reflect the complexity of what we are dealing with, or captures it.
Gyuri: So that, that, that's really, the, the, the, what I'm trying to, to bring, and the, and, Tim, the, Tony, the…
Gyuri: That's exactly it, and I like the sandbox idea, because that's what the IndieWeb is, is basically… it's actually a constellation of different scaling architectures, because the idea that you want to be… you want to do something
Gyuri: Whatever it is.
Gyuri: And then you go to the so-called non-functional requirements.
Gyuri: How is it scale? Is it a personal thing? Is it… is it a low number number? Is it millions of users? Is it intergalactic?
Gyuri: Now, clearly, whatever you want to do as a human being is the same.
Gyuri: But at the moment, what we do, we architect the whole, whole, Full stock.
Gyuri: And rewrite everything every time to fit that requirement, whereas what we should be able to do is to get it work for 1, get it work for 2, get it work for 3,
Gyuri: And the rest is principle of inductive construction, which is to say, you should be able to figure out once and for all
Gyuri: The basic machinery that anybody can use
Gyuri: for whatever they want to do, because if you've got to create a universal way of having conversations about what do I want, which turn gradually into working software.
Gyuri: which is… which is really possible now, then, then, then, then we… we have, we have… and the same thing is that, that exactly we should be able to, the way the IndieWeb, as I was dreaming about it would be for all these years.
Gyuri: And it took me a long time to actually articulate it, had Alan and others have been in discussions. In dialogue, it came out. There are principles, and I'm so glad to hear you, because I'm the same with the web. If you want to know what kind of a system we need, well, just say no.
Gyuri: Look at the opposite of what that is.
Gyuri: You've got a strong guarantee that something which… which enhances human potential is everything of the opposite. And I got 72 items. If you… if you look at… look at the way we work on… with the web, the way it is constructed.
Gyuri: There are 72 points, you know, it's not… it shouldn't be separation of concerns, it should be integration of concerns, you know, and everything, yeah? And I got this idea from Alan Kay 10 years ago on his simplicity tour, when he says he takes an A4 sheet of paper.
Gyuri: Write down the best practices of today, and then whatever we believe to be true, and stick a no in front of it, and explore that space.
Gyuri: So I, I, I, I agree,
Gyuri: I think, I think this is the… this is the key. This is why it's dialogue, and in fact, it has to be omni-optional. It's not… you know, whether it's synchronous or asynchronous, you need all. Whether it's centralized or decentralized, or… or only centric, we need all of them, okay?
Gyuri: You can't have a, you know, you need all of them. It's… that it's quite clear, however… however we… however we rightly, rightly criticize the… the…
Gyuri: big tech.
Gyuri: You do need to be able… you, you need, need, need, need, need, need a God's eye view.
Gyuri: To be accessible for us.
Gyuri: Okay? So, so it's, it's, it's not an either-or, it's all and. And you really need to, need to, need to, need, you know, need, need to, and that's the, that's the whole point, is that, I think the English is, even a, a, a blind,
Gyuri: Squidow can find a knot, okay? I really like people who… who are very far out, like my… my wife, you know? Because from that position, she sees things that I don't.
Gyuri: as Wilbur said, when I finished now this, and I'm so enjoying it, it's just so lovely to be… I'm in heaven.
Gyuri: Is that, that, nobody's that smart to be wrong all the time, or to… yeah, yeah, to be wrong all the time, okay?
Gyuri: So just, just bear that in mind.
Gyuri: And thank you very much. I think, I think we really need to… need to… and I put some links in, but I'm not ready with it, but next week, I… I… I'm gonna create this for this
Gyuri: discussion today, I will put it up, whatever I can do with the existing bits of the technology.
Gyuri: And just one other thing, that's the other thing that is built into the IndieWeb. The best thing about the IPFS, which nobody knows, nobody… actually, nobody studied it as I did.
Gyuri: is the idea, which is in the very first videos, you can… you can… it's there. The whole point is that you should be able to create something
Gyuri: Working on the web for the benefit of people, Which is unstoppable.
Gyuri: Unsensible. And you can just walk away.
Gyuri: And it will be good for forever, because it should have the ways of actually improving it and changing it.
Gyuri: That's the whole point. You don't deliver and you are the boss. The whole point is you create something for the commons, for all benefits, and provide the means of they actually being able to do that for themselves. So the only… the crucial thing, we need a system which people can
Gyuri: can…
Gyuri: can build it for themselves. And in fact, this is what I do. I write very little code, because anything worth having, somebody has already built the system. All you need to do is find it, and find a way of plugging it in.
Gyuri: That's all you need to do. Most of the things I… I had stopped coding 6 years ago. There's no need.
Gyuri: you need to find… you need to find the people you need to talk to, you need to find the system which… and figure out how you compose them, and how you describe this composition. So it's really a matter of notation and methodology.
Gyuri: It's aimed… what you do is the way that you do it. That's… that's what gets results, so…
Gyuri: I'm very happy to be able to…
Gyuri: I see your face, I see your… that's it. We all… we all come to this… I mean, you are the first person who said exactly what I felt, and I… I feel it just as important as that as you do. Well, if you want to know what a good financial system should do.
Gyuri: Well, no! Just look at what the opposite of what's happening.
Gyuri: Okay.
Gyuri: Because that's… and we don't need to argue this, okay? Whether it's fuck-up theory or conspiracy, I don't care.
Gyuri: It is clearly the system is as bad as it possibly could be.
Gyuri: Okay? And it actually shows what it… what it denies. It denies human potential, okay? So there you are. Thank you very much.
Gyuri: Yeah.
Gyuri: Thank you.
An_Maonaigh: brother, so… When I heard, Twain describing abundamy, have I said that right? Abandonami? Abundomy!
teunvansambeek: Abundomy is like…
An_Maonaigh: A boom to me.
teunvansambeek: Imagination be between abundance and economy, you know?
An_Maonaigh: I realized that what we're sitting in… if that's a bun to me, what we're sitting in is sodomy, because we're getting fucked everywhere.
An_Maonaigh: I thought that's a lovely, context. But, Guri, I have a question for you. With all of these no-coding tools, low-coding tools, and you're saying, let's not do that.
An_Maonaigh: How do we empower people? Because I see no.
Gyuri: Because the point is that the…
Gyuri: I haven't tried it. You can be low-code, or it doesn't matter. Again, it's the opposite. The more they push it, the more you know that's not the way, because what's happening is that the web
Gyuri: Has it grown? And I fully understand, the only way you could have made it interplanetary and global is to build in
Gyuri: financial incentives for it to grow, okay? So… so that's why this… this… this unholy marriage between, money and… and VC.
Gyuri: But this is something, the most important I forgot to say, that it's… we are not interested. Again, what's the opposite of exit strategy in a VEC world?
Gyuri: The exit strategy is, is, is not even what HoloChain did, which is a very good
Gyuri: step in the right direction. They said, let's exit to communities.
Gyuri: Okay?
Gyuri: Now, actually.
Gyuri: I think it's sort of… what we are doing here, right now, we are entering into communities. We are… we need to build… build the capabilities needed to actually spawn communities.
Gyuri: That, that, that really is the challenge. How we could facilitate,
Gyuri: inter-intellect, you know, how can we facilitate? All these good insights can be… because we need… need… need… need to make the bandwidth so much harder, and coming back to the… to the low code and low code, and whatever.
Gyuri: the… the crew, as I said.
Gyuri: Anything you… anything you want, video editing, annotation, doesn't matter what it is.
Gyuri: good open source libraries are around. You really need to think, as I used to call it, programming in the large. No, we need to… need to… need to consider the composition of all these, and that is something which was invented in 2010.
Gyuri: called Progressive Web Apps, okay?
Gyuri: So as long as you can… you can reconstitute whatever, whatever web capability you want, as a PWA,
Gyuri: it has two… two things. It works offline.
Gyuri: Okay? And it works with local… local storage.
Gyuri: So if, if, if, if you, if you reshape whatever you have.
Gyuri: and formulate it in such a way that it works low on offline as well, and local storage, then it can be trivially incorporated into the indie web by anybody anytime.
Gyuri: Okay, because the whole trick is the whole thing is that instead of every application worrying about the create, read, update, delete.
Gyuri: mechanism, and use a database, whatever, which has to be handcrafted for that particular solution. Let's have a universal way of handling the crude operations, the data layer operations.
Gyuri: which is interplayable and exchangeable at whatever scale, okay? And that's really the solution. So, so the actual, actual, working with it or extending, it's really…
Gyuri: it does require some knowledge, but it's not that complexity. And the point is, we need to be… I mean, like I do with Pirgos, or Cleepad, or whatever, you… there is Pirgos, for example, it's got…
Gyuri: And many other systems produce this kind of thing, this sort of,
Gyuri: entire suite of applications which work uniformly, and work with… work with the… work with the storage layers. So there is the… there is three, three, the infrastructureing, that's… that's… that's, that's… that's a separate issue, but you've got storage.
Gyuri: And, and KPI, that's the other thing, which is very important. So you ship.
Gyuri: work… that's it. You ship working systems. Allow people to interact with them and play with them, and… and that's true, as you said.
Gyuri: You can do the experiments, if you… if you want this, this, this, or that, or… and… and you should be able to articulate this, and the emphasis on the conversation, and the articulation, I call it, the formulation. You've got to formulate the ideas.
Gyuri: And you should be able to have them, yeah. Okay, running on the computer.
Gyuri: Yeah.
Gyuri: Yeah. I don't know whether it was any… any of it was com… was comprehensible, but .
teunvansambeek: Yeah, perhaps I can also comment a bit on that.
teunvansambeek: Yes. It's also what I noticed myself. So, in the beginning, I really focused on making it peer-to-peer.
teunvansambeek: So that it… that you don't need a central database, and
teunvansambeek: And I truly believe that that is very possible. It's only important that the parameters you use in your system that are… that are clear, so… because then you can just develop it on an island, and have another island
teunvansambeek: have the same system again, and then when somebody travels from one island to the other island, it's still… you know, you can still…
teunvansambeek: communicate with each other, so that you can still believe and check if the other person has, let's say, has gone through the same process as you did, so that, let's say, his money is as real as yours.
teunvansambeek: So, that was sort of the basis of my idea, but as I said, at this moment, I don't think it's… the technology is not too important, it's about the philosophy. So, first, people need.
Gyuri: Yes.
teunvansambeek: And what… yeah, what is the philosophy? And then you get your technical solutions.
Gyuri: Yes, but the point is that… that you go… that the point is that whatever you do, you have to be omni-optional.
Gyuri: Whatever you do should be able to work in whatever constellation, because you may not have thought of it now, but there will come a point where that will be required. And the point is that when you shift, or let's just take the classic example, real-time or asynchronous.
Gyuri: You need both, okay?
teunvansambeek: No.
Gyuri: You can't say, oh, it's got to be real time. And you've got to be able to, offline and online, and you must be able to handle all these dualities. You know, you really need to be able to do that.
Gyuri: Yeah, but to me, that is…
teunvansambeek: That is also… that is also, sort of a mathematical… Questioned.
teunvansambeek: So, because you can, you can solve all these things.
teunvansambeek: You have the blockchain technology, and you have, let's say, the old-fashioned technologies.
Gyuri: Oh, oh, sorry to interrupt.
Gyuri: blockchain.
Gyuri: It's not derived philosophy.
teunvansambeek: No, it's.
Gyuri: Blockchain is… the notion of absolute time is only needed if you want to be God and want to control it, okay?
Gyuri: For all the other real, real people, they… what… what is needed is… is they themselves can validate.
Gyuri: what they do.
Gyuri: And to the extent that they're connected, and all those connected graphs will be small, you know, small words, three ropes away.
Gyuri: The very idea of the blockchain, It's dead as a mirage.
Gyuri: It's impossible.
teunvansambeek: I agree with you, so it's not that I'm saying it should be in a blockchain. What I'm saying is you have that technology, so if you are offline for a while, then you can use, let's say, temporary blockchain, or you have a personal block… I call it.
Gyuri: No, no, no, it's, it's, it's… sorry, sorry. It's the… it's the big, big divide between the blockchain and the, this, the, the, the, not the ledger.
Gyuri: Who needs the ledger? Accountants. What we need is decentral… is distributed hash tables. Please, if you… if you haven't, haven't, haven't… I heard about IPFS. Sorry?
teunvansambeek: I think that's what I mean, actually.
Gyuri: Yeah, IPFS is a superset of that. From IPFS, you can create a ledger.
Gyuri: You can create a ledger, but it just won't work, you know.
teunvansambeek: Yeah.
teunvansambeek: So you don't need one ledger, I agree with that.
Gyuri: That's it. In fact, this is the whole point. If you want our autonomy, and just as you said, if you… you want… you need radical openness.
Gyuri: You've got to have the whole thing open, and anybody can verify the beat that they cared about anytime.
Gyuri: Okay, on demand.
Gyuri: You need to be on demand, validate your… the swear that concerns you.
Gyuri: And that's exactly… and then you… then you can… and yes, we did and everything, then you don't need… you didn't… don't need authority. You… we are the authority, okay? The participants are the authority.
teunvansambeek: Yeah, yeah, that's the basis of what I'm thinking also about, is the basis, you know?
Gyuri: Yeah, that's a philosophy level, you know, that's it.
teunvansambeek: Absolutely.
An_Maonaigh: Josh for this hand, Josh. And then we have 12 minutes in our allotted time if people stay. That's amazing. But, Josh?
Josh Sidman: Yeah, so I want to try to, bring us back to… square one.
Josh Sidman: for the purpose of planning the next meeting.
Josh Sidman: these meetings never end up being what I anticipated, but I…
Josh Sidman: try to also be open to the idea that what I anticipated was not what needed to happen, and what happened was what needed to happen. So I thought that today, Mike was going to be here, and was going to present us with
Josh Sidman: A demonstration of… Of a crude…
Josh Sidman: version… Yeah, that was the plan, yeah. …of a conversation paradigm. He ended up not being here today. I don't know why.
Josh Sidman: let… I'm… I'm assuming that he didn't need to be here today. But…
Josh Sidman: There are so many different directions that this conversation can go in, and…
Josh Sidman: what I think is fundamental, what I think is ground zero, is… the… conversation architecture.
Josh Sidman: Because that can then be used to conduct
Josh Sidman: an endless array of sub-conversations, or completely separate conversations. But until that
Josh Sidman: architecture is in place and is functioning, and is a tool that is available to us, then we have not moved
Josh Sidman: anywhere, beyond just what we already had, which was the ability to connect via Zoom and have a synchronous conversation among whoever shows up and record it so that whoever didn't show up can… can… can view it.
Josh Sidman: we all agree that we need to move beyond that. So what I would propose
Josh Sidman: For the next time, is…
Josh Sidman: I will… I will make sure that I connect one-on-one with Mike, and that he…
Josh Sidman: is present at the next meeting and has a demo ready to go that he can present to us, and I've got… I've got a list of
Josh Sidman: Questions and topics that need to be addressed in order to, flesh out a conversation architecture. So…
Josh Sidman: What I'm proposing is that the next conversation Could potentially be both The first block.
Josh Sidman: And also the conversation about the first block.
Josh Sidman: So that Mike is gonna come. I've already seen his, his first most crude,
Josh Sidman: implementation of this dialogue paradigm. He's gonna have something a step beyond what I've already seen, hopefully, for the next meeting, and he can then show it to us, and then we can have a conversation about what
Josh Sidman: what else needs to be done to it? In what… what issues need to be addressed? How… what functionalities need to be added?
Josh Sidman: And then…
Josh Sidman: It can become sort of an iterative process where we are using the tool to talk about the tool, and that the tool
Josh Sidman: Evolves through the… Through the process of using it.
Josh Sidman: So that's what I propose we do next time.
An_Maonaigh: And I just want to add in that Juri is saying he will have something to demonstrate, on IPFS in the web, which will keep us all within the same technical architecture, so that we're not going to LinkedIn here, and Zoom there, and…
An_Maonaigh: Amazon over there, so we're talking about, potentially, If it happens…
An_Maonaigh: That we might see two demos next time,
An_Maonaigh: And if not, well then we'll gather and we'll see who's there in the time and space.
An_Maonaigh: So, shall we start checking out, I'm… I'm…
An_Maonaigh: Pleased to keep the room open. If anybody wants to stay later, if anybody needs to leave, we've allowed 2 hours, 7 minutes left.
Josh Sidman: Can I just mention the time zone thing? Because I feel like this is…
Josh Sidman: Throwing a wrench in the works.
Josh Sidman: I still am confused about the difference between GMT and Dublin time, and I know that last… last week, Mike ended up showing… showing up an hour later because he was confused. Can we…
Josh Sidman: Make a different,
Josh Sidman: time zone be the reference time zone? Can we just say that East Coast, United States, New York time zone is what we will all calculate our,
Josh Sidman: Are time differences from? Would that work?
An_Maonaigh: So this is called the Bretton Woods policy. This is what you fuckers did after the war. You made the time zone, you made the dollar, you made the Fed, and look where you're at now. So, no! Fuck off!
teunvansambeek: Yeah, I think I was an hour late, also, because…
Josh Sidman: How about… how about Rwanda time? What's your time zone, Doyne?
teunvansambeek: Yeah, I think it's Central African time. C-A-T it's called, so…
Josh Sidman: Does that ever change? Do you guys do time changes?
Gyuri: No!
teunvansambeek: No, it's… no, we don't have it.
Josh Sidman: Alright, that he ignores.
Gyuri: C.
Gyuri: Yes, yes, yes, that's where Guillen is, yes, yes, yes.
Josh Sidman: Let's use that, then.
Chris Cook: I'm proposing Scottish time, which is opening time.
An_Maonaigh: It's the opening of the…
teunvansambeek: The bars are…
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, yeah.
An_Maonaigh: Beautiful, and I propose Dublin Mushroom time, which means you put it at whatever time you like.
An_Maonaigh: So, yes, Josh, we will put in multiple time zones, and we pray that your confusion will be dissolved, because you'll have so many time zones to turn up at.
teunvansambeek: Yeah. But perhaps you can also send a reminder, like, half an hour before, because I'm an hour late, I think, because I messed up the time zones.
teunvansambeek: I don't… I don't know.
An_Maonaigh: Okay, I'll send… I will send out a reminder, I will, I promise.
Chris Cook: Can I conclude with a little anecdote?
Chris Cook: From the oil business.
Chris Cook: There was a meeting of OPEC.
Chris Cook: And, and the… I think it was the Venezuelan rep and the Saudi rep were having a conversation.
Chris Cook: And the Venezuelan rep said to the Saudi rep,
Chris Cook: Tell me, he said, what does Inshallah mean?
Chris Cook: And the Saudi rep said to him, well, it's like… it's like Manana, but without the same sense of urgency.
An_Maonaigh: And I was in the Middle East. You're lucky if people turn up on the same day, never mind.
Chris Cook: Exactly.
An_Maonaigh: So, yes, we will have multiple time zones, but actually, do you know what?
An_Maonaigh: We're only turning up in the now.
An_Maonaigh: That's how we're actually turning up. I mean, you're saying, Josh, that Mike didn't turn up because he's confused about the time zone. That might not be true, he might not want to be here.
Josh Sidman: possible.
Josh Sidman: But…
Josh Sidman: We're already, we're already fighting an uphill battle. We don't need to be creating additional obstacles to collaboration.
An_Maonaigh: I agree.
Josh Sidman: Can we… can we agree that we're gonna shoot for the same day and the same time.
Josh Sidman: that we did today, which was 9 AM here in Lima,
Josh Sidman: And that we're gonna try to communicate that in a way that nobody can be confused for the.
An_Maonaigh: Somebody's gonna be confused. We cannot guarantee that nobody will be confused.
An_Maonaigh: How could you do that?
Gyuri: Can I ask everybody to click on that link.
Gyuri: And on that page, write, you know, write their name, or change the display name. I wanted to see whether it is actually working, okay? This is not me, this is just Crypt. It's one of the… one of the components we want to use.
Gyuri: So please, just go there.
An_Maonaigh: Yeah.
Gyuri: Perhaps, yeah, take a screenshot of your… of what you do, what you see, and paste it into the document if it works.
Gyuri: I don't know.
An_Maonaigh: Darina, what do you want us to do?
Gyuri: But, well, somebody should share, share their screen, then I can talk, talk to, talk.
An_Maonaigh: I can do that. I can do that.
Gyuri: Yeah.
Gyuri: At the moment, I'm having trouble… trouble… getting that… copying that link myself.
An_Maonaigh: Okay, no worries. Cool.
Gyuri: Healing, okay.
Gyuri: Sorry, I have to, I have to let it get out.
An_Maonaigh: Okay, let the cat out.
teunvansambeek: It's… it's working with me.
Gyuri: Well, she's hungry, and the door was closed.
Gyuri: Yep.
teunvansambeek: Yeah, exactly.
An_Maonaigh: Okay, so this is the, the link you gave us.
Gyuri: Yes, and this is… this is… this is… this is just to show that what… can you see… give you that mushroom?
Gyuri: The whole point is, this is… this is… this is… it's not the only one, but Fitbit is very good at this. It basically… you can… you can share any document you create in a way that anybody can have access to it, and who has the link, and edit it.
Gyuri: And then you can… you can… if you click on your mushroom, and, you go to…
An_Maonaigh: I love it! Where's the mushroom?
Gyuri: Yeah, there's a mushroom icon there.
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, yeah, okay, click the mushroom, yeah.
Gyuri: Okay, and say Settings.
An_Maonaigh: Yep.
Gyuri: And change the display name, go, go to, profile, click on profile.
An_Maonaigh: Yep.
Gyuri: And, and write your name.
Gyuri: There you are.
Gyuri: So I'm just saying that I want to… I'm not writing any code, I'm using existing open source stuff and combined them. So this already gives you… if everybody does this here, and you preserve this link.
Gyuri: This field… this field, I don't… not gonna delete it or anything. So you can… you can send messages to me, because I'm gonna be there a lot. You can chat, and you can write anything you like, you know, create a new… new heading, a new section in that, and write whatever you want, and… and know that… that I asynchronously
Gyuri: Some of us, we'll have a look at it.
Gyuri: And I want to use this as the… this… I use this…
Gyuri: than to create… anybody can create their own private Minecraft or their own thing, not in here, in somewhere else, and through IPFS, you should be able to share it. So the whole point is to be asynchronous, and you should be able to change it and everything, but this is the…
Gyuri: This is a way to get off the ground, okay?
Gyuri: And if you… if you ever… and I'm gonna put in a link, link tomorrow, which will enable anybody who is on this page, click on that link, and should be able to real-time communicate screen share like Zoom.
Gyuri: Viratsu.
Gyuri: That's also… that's already in the work, and then I… I will put in links which… which show you how to… how you can,
Gyuri: how you can archive all your searches, archive all the pages that you care about, and then annotation. Anyhow, so there's a space here that we can use, and I'm glad that it actually works, so please, please have a look at…
Gyuri: do things there, okay?
Chris Cook: I'm gonna
Chris Cook: Sorry to interrupt, I'm going to have to jump, guys, but pleasure to meet you all, and no doubt we'll convene again in a couple of weeks.
An_Maonaigh: Two weeks, I think.
Chris Cook: Rather than manana. Okay.
An_Maonaigh: Salah manana, and abundami to you.
Chris Cook: But.
An_Maonaigh: Thanks, bro.
Gyuri: Why not?
teunvansambeek: Okay.
An_Maonaigh: Okay, shall we check out?
Gyuri: Yeah.
An_Maonaigh: Unless anybody wants to stay.
teunvansambeek: If I want to know more about that crypt path, can I contact somebody, or how do we contact.
Gyuri: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's actually, actually, yes, you, please, you, you're welcome, I, I, I, I will keep this open, or I'm using crypto all the time, so within an hour or so, any, any… it will notify me that you updated it.
Gyuri: Okay.
teunvansambeek: Okay.
teunvansambeek: So we can also communicate… communicate through this… this link, sort of.
Gyuri: That's the… that's the whole point.
Gyuri: You just, you just put a… put, put a… put… put a section in there and say, hello, this is me. You, you, I, oh, I see you there, yeah, okay. So please, please, please make use of it. And if you've got any questions, I'm around, I'm trying to train myself to be interruptible.
Gyuri: Because I, I really suffered from, from not, not, not, not, not tolerating interrupts, and suffering from interrupts by changing my, my way, and so I, I, I relish on interrupts from anybody, okay?
teunvansambeek: Okay.
An_Maonaigh: And I just want to honor that, it means we don't have to email you, you don't have to put your email address…
Gyuri: That's the thing.
An_Maonaigh: Connect to EncryptPad.
Gyuri: That's it. The whole point of the IndieWeb is to forget about email.
An_Maonaigh: Yeah.
Gyuri: Edge your own contact space.
An_Maonaigh: muted.
Gyuri: Yes.
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, love it.
An_Maonaigh: Okay, so, blessings to us all for being here, those that were here, those that were supposed to be here, and are not. We bless them too. And we bless the ones who will come next time, and who were never here. And one of the things that I wrote down…
An_Maonaigh: Particularly when you were speaking juries, and it blew my own mind. You said.
An_Maonaigh: We have to be able to connect with centralized, and we have to be able to connect with decentralized, and then I drew a circle between them, and I said, you have to do both.
An_Maonaigh: But then what I also did is I flipped the top one, and I said, you have to be able to do none as well. So, no, I don't want to play in your crypt pad. And that's the beauty of the dialogue.
Gyuri: Thank you very much, yeah.
An_Maonaigh: So, blessings to us all. I'm actually very excited and very grateful. There is an abundance here of time and energy and space and expertise.
An_Maonaigh: And, I'm feeling very grateful to have been part of the convening, so I'm out with that. Blessings to us all.
An_Maonaigh: Curie, Josh, Tune?
An_Maonaigh: Check out.
teunvansambeek: It's okay.
teunvansambeek: We'll see you soon.
teunvansambeek: Fair enough.
Gyuri: I feel the same way. It's amazing. It's been an amazing call.
Gyuri: Thank you, Tim, and Josh, and and Chris, was it Chris? I got trouble with new names, but yeah, I mean, he…
Gyuri: it really is, is, is, is taking shape. We really need to, need to, need to have this, yeah. So thank… thank you.
Gyuri: Thank you, Paul, for… For arranging it.
teunvansambeek: Thank you, Josh, for inviting me to this group. It's amazing. Thank you.
Josh Sidman: Yeah, as my checkout, I want to say that I'm already…
Josh Sidman: chafing at the every two weeks, format, and I'm hoping that we can move beyond that as soon as possible, because I don't want to wait two weeks to continue this conversation.
Josh Sidman: And I think that what we're doing is creating an architecture where that… where we… where we overcome that, that limitation. So, I'm excited.
Josh Sidman: For this conversation not only to continue, but to gain momentum through, through overcoming Existing technical limitations.
teunvansambeek: Yeah, I'm also… Codettes, you know.
Gyuri: And the lave out on that.
teunvansambeek: It's very important.
Gyuri: noticing.
Gyuri: we are already on the same page, if you want to, so if you have a… async, you can check that page, and I will put
Gyuri: put all the work I'm gonna do with this, this here, and you… you should be… and you should be able to look at it, and have a conversation. That's your point. The important thing is not enough to be able to share your work. You should be able to share the process itself.
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, beautiful.
Gyuri: fancy work.
An_Maonaigh: So, Gary, I will put the Zoom link into the Crypt Pad.
Gyuri: Yes, yes, yes, please.
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, and Camir, is .4… is that France? Is that a French URL? FR?
Gyuri: It's a French… the developers… it's… they host it in France. Okay. But please support them on Open Collective. I do that, and if you buy… buy your own account, I think that supports them, and I really like them. I really support them.
An_Maonaigh: So, it seems to me we are actually living what we are dreaming into. We're now all on the same page. Cryptac.org, that's beautiful. So, I've put all the resources there.
An_Maonaigh: And as you say, I have 3 channels working when we're connecting. So I have my email when we're connecting, I have my Zoom when we're connecting, and I have my WhatsApp. So to bring it all back into the one page, and I really like that as the message jury.
An_Maonaigh: We're all on the one page.
An_Maonaigh: For those that want to be there.
Gyuri: That's it.
An_Maonaigh: Thank you.
Gyuri: Thank you very much.
An_Maonaigh: Alright, bless him, brother.
Gyuri: Yeah, bye-bye.
teunvansambeek: Next time.
An_Maonaigh: Okay, see you later.
Gyuri: Thank you very much, it was great, yeah.
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, so much fun, yeah. I do want to save the chat, though. Where do I save the chat?
Gyuri: please say, oh, oh, oh, and well, you send it to me, because you really… I don't think you can upload anything to it, unless… you may even be able to… yes, you should be able to upload it.
Gyuri: Upload it into… no, no, okay, send it to me, I upload it then, but the best thing is to get an account, and you should be okay. You should be able to really… it's a drive as well, think about this. It's Google Drive equivalent, but it's encrypted and secure and all that stuff.
Gyuri: But somehow you sent it to me, yeah, okay.
An_Maonaigh: She does zero… April 22… 2026. You know, I just want to make sure I'm saving the chat.
Gyuri: Yes, sir?
An_Maonaigh: I'll get it, yeah, I'll get it, Chad. Alright, brother.
An_Maonaigh: Okay, okay. So, you know, after, after 18 months…
Gyuri: reckon.
An_Maonaigh: Go on, yeah?
Gyuri: No, I just want to make sure that I take… no, I want to have a screenshot of you and me here.
Gyuri: For the scrapbook.
Gyuri: Yeah.
Gyuri: Okay.
Gyuri: I put it in, they put it in the document, because that's where I am. Can you check the document before you go? There you are.
An_Maonaigh: Yeah. Where do I… where do I go? Back into Moon.
Gyuri: Go, go, say, oh, please, save that link.
Gyuri: That creep that we're just seeing? Yeah.
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, I'm here on the link, yeah, let me refresh it.
Gyuri: Yeah, yeah, yeah, refresh it, yeah. You're not logged, you're not in here. Oh, yes, you're there, yes, you're there. Now you can see.
An_Maonaigh: I'm not plugged in.
An_Maonaigh: Hold on.
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, it's wanting me to sign up, yeah?
Gyuri: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
An_Maonaigh: Let me see if I can…
Gyuri: Okay.
An_Maonaigh: I don't know anything. Hold on a sec, yeah, I have to sign up, yeah.
Gyuri: Okay. Yeah, okay, okay, see you.
An_Maonaigh: Alright, brother, bless you.
Gyuri: Thank you.
An_Maonaigh: Be it.